To me Dumog is incomplete because it does not seem to cover two of the ranges needed for close combat. I have only limited exposure, but as far as I know it does not have:
1. The shoot and sprawl range;
2. The guard and mount phase;
In addition, up to now, it has not been practiced in a free-flowing, unrehearsed, manner with resistance. Thus, IMO, it's better to learn BJJ where those elements can be trained.
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Play fighting as reality. Let's take any sport vs 'reality'. Riding a bike. Is a guy rides as a courier in downtown NY very good? Yes. Will he win the Tour de France or any bike race? No. Cheating or fouls or 'too deadly to practice' moves are only going to take you so far.
Remember in boxing when a guy who was technically superior complained 'the opponent was getting off first (superior timing), I couldn't get my punch in'. The superior timing came via the rigors of sport fighting.
You can have the biggest nuke (punch) in the world but if you can't 'deliver it on target' it's almost worthless. It's just sitting in your (yard) repertoire with 'potential'.
Likewise, all the people who think they are 'too deadly' imagine fighting their next-door-neighbor with their biting and hair pulling and eye gouging. But against a real predatory opponent who has just as good or better attributes and has toughened up by playing the 'game' week in week out you are toast and you'll never get your (bite/gouge) shot off. You won't be able to get positional dominance. I can get positional dominance, I can bite the hell out of you and you can't stop me. But I can keep you from getting more than a little nip by tying you up and being positionally dominant. You can't BASE your art on fouls, or being too deadly.
Study the tournament of 1886 - the judo guys with all the dangerous stuff taken out were able to dominate the JJJ fighters who just had a collection of tricks.
You need a delivery system for your art to be trained and internally functionalized. You can't train or internally functionalize biting and gouging - they're essentially tricks that you hope to use on an unwitting and weak opponent. You must base your fight on the scariest opponent you can hope to encounter, not Uncle Ned.
What gives the most 'aliveness' - well experience does. Fighting a real jungle war where you are killing your opponents daily gives you the best training. You're fighting to the death. Trouble is you can't do that in civilized countries or at least not very often. So you get your aliveness the best you can, you eliminate dead drills and you hope when you're in tunnel vision mode that you trained as you want to fight. Indicating a 'too-deadly move' in the dojo accounts for little.
Thus, sport fighting is a way to up the aliveness (footwork, timing, unpredictability and fully resisting opponents) for the longest period of time with the best opponents (many and varied). I can train a sport fighter to foul the hell outta you in a 4 hr seminar. It would take me years to teach a foul tactics guy how to survive in a hotly contested sport application of fighting.
Let's briefly examine how a 'sports' fighter beats you:
1. Superior conditioning - they can out run you and wait for you to tire.
2. Vast numbers of varied skill opponents
3. Used to being hit
4. Using their skills on the fly - improvising - many more opportunities to 'fight'
5. Less 'nerves' during the fight - cooler head
6. Faster vision - they have seen more, can react quicker
7. Footwork has been stress tested.
...and a lot more that you can think of yourself.
Your only 'leg up' is you have a super secret deadly move you're just itching to try if the guy will just hold still. :)
Those are all great reasons.... so in my mind its probably the person rather than the style that will win in the end... If the FMA practioner had the same attributes he could win also.
Um...Hi...I hope it is ok to re-enter the conversation my Kuyas (big brothers)...
I have been sitting on the sidelines mostly just reading what everyone has been saying, but now I feel compelled to re-engage...
Regarding the attributes mentioned by kuya Badger, these have always been trained in FMA as far as my experience goes.
For example, let's take fitness and conditioning - these are always trained...especially when doing ascending drills that increase in frequency and intensity as you go along - try an 81-hit flurry (kicks, knees, elbows, punches, etc.) at full power...you don't even get that in MMA training! As I have stated before - I have been involved in helping MMA fighters when they prep for fights and have been their cornerman for 8 years, so I am in a position to know...
Next...let's examine the vast numbers of varied skilled opponents...we do this in FMA as well...when I was fighting full-contact real stick challenge matches, my brother even found people to mimmick opponent skills and traits for me! We also trained the most frequent and probable responses to my combative idiosyncracies as well as the most improbable, so this element is covered as well.
As far as used to being hit goes...what no BS FMA practitioner is not used to getting hit?!! As an old-school practitioner, we used no gear and fought for real...we trained on the road in front of my parents house...I used to rake my kuya's face on the stucko of our house...I even two-fisted him in the spine and we had to take him to the hospital, my parents thought he was paralyzed for good...I had my first knife match when i was a teenager...I stabbed my uncle's student and ended the match in less than a minute...during patayan (death match) style training we hit FOR REAL!
As for using our skills on the fly...since when do FMA practitioners NOT do this?! The whole point to training is to use REAL WEAPONS, be they anatomical or otherwise, and beat the living s**t out of each other and then lie to the doctor...patayan style training forces the practitioner to do nothing but improvise, or they will pay a hefty price in the form of being seriously injured to the point of not being able to train...I myself am paying this price, I can barely raise my right arm above shoulder level due to the punishment I took during all those years...
With regard to less nerves during a fight...If you are used to live weapons matches with REAL WEAPONS where people are routinely injured, then why would you be nervous going into an MMA fight?! All they're gonna do is knock you out, choke you out or break something...no big deal...
As far as faster vision goes training against swift moving weapons that cut or smash you is a lot more effective than looking at punches, kicks, elbows, and knees...especially when you train with the element of REAL DANGER and REAL CONSEQUENCES...you are so switched on with a high level of vigilance, especially when you get to the target combative heart rate range.
As far as the footwork being stress-tested?! What does that mean? There is no magic secret to footwork, and there are no magic sneakers to make someone good...the best way to stress test is just to fight...period...all footwork basically does is deliver you out of the effective range or angle of the opponent the opponent's attack and deliver you into an effective range or angle to launch your own attackd....this is kindergarten stuff...
As far as pressure testing goes - you remember that MMA guy that I mentioned previously in this blog that I eyed jabbed and then stomped on cause he made fun of us? He fought in the UFC twice, and I owned him because we was not used to my "super-secret" twice-deadly move...he is lucky that I let him up that day and didn't even stab him...too bad for me...
The only way to pressure test is to fight FOR REAL...growing up in our community as a Filipino...all we did is fight for REAL...it was the same for GM Dan Rutano too...when he lifts up his shirt, you see he is full of stab wounds because he fought FOR REAL...
If you are not fighting FOR REAL and putting people in the hospital, then you are fighting at all...
Here is an example, and you can ask Guro Noah Walt to confirm it...a couple of months ago, we attended a training session with the Pekiti Tirsia group in Edmonton. His friend came and talked to me, and was espousing his experience at the Dog Brothers camp...I told them that it is a bit different in real life...I told him that when you don't have a helment on you tend to compress your body and keep your stick high to protect your head...he gave me a questioning look so I told him to grab his stick and stand up...he immediately "declined" politely....
Kuya Badger, I hope you understand that I am an old-school guy like you...but I think we have had vastly different experiences in FMA as well as life...
In our Filipino community, you are trained to grow as a warrior and to walk that path until you cannot walk at all...we lived the Mandirigma lifestyle to its fullest and were willing to fight and die just to keep up the tradition...I, as well as my barkadas (buddies) fought anyone and everyone FOR REAL...we even beat the living s**t of the bikers, and I was invited to the clubhouse so they could apologize to me...I will even post the pic of me in the clubhouse with my machete (I wouldn't go in without it!!) if Master Malmo will permit it...
If you Google my old company "CQB Group Inc." (please put it in quotation marks), you will see that I made my mark responding to international kidnap and ransom incidents in Ecuador and Colombia, as well as the Middle East and Africa...so as you can see, I do it FOR REAL...
When I am in Canada, I teach use-of-force courses and act as an Expert consultant for the Alberta Civil Trial Lawyers Association (ID#01149). In addition, I teach FMA out of my backyard to guys who want to do it FOR REAL...they have been cut with real knives and smashed with real sticks...but they continue to train with me whenever I'm around because of the fact that they cannot get realismin combat anywhere else...
As an aside, I will even print a copy of the Filipino Sentinel from 2004...I did a full-power demo on my students which horrified their mother! The mother's were screaming and crying everywhere! Anyways, at the end of the demo, I took the microphone and challenged anyone of the FMA instructors who were watching from the back and said I would wait onstage for 30 minutes for any challenger...it was reported in the Filipino Sentinel that " no one would accept Guro Ollie's challenge for a friendly combat"...real warriors do it for real and prove it by putting their health, lives and reputation on the line...I have never met an MMA player willing to die like I am for the sake of combat....
If I have offended anyone here, I am truly sorry and will de-list if requested to...
With respect to all always,
And with regard to the respect part...I will ALWAYS give respect to all and ALWAYS use their titles...our predecessors fought and put their lives on the line so their respective systems would continue to exist so we could inherit them!
I would not be here if my father did not force me to learn the art. I would not be here if my lolo (grandfather) did not force my father to learn as well. I will always owe my existence to them, and to GM Rutano for forcing me to evolve and find the keys to FMA for myself.
We are here because of the innate greatness of the Masters that came before us. I am nothing but a piece of s**t compared to these great men. All I can ever hope to do is try to be worthy enough to stand in their shadows.
With respect always,
I would encourage all MA to read this:
I'm wondering something. Do you think your original assertation:
"Dumog is incomplete because it does not seem to cover two of the ranges needed for close combat."
has been addressed? If so I suggest we move some of these other threads like, the need for titles, physical fitness of grandmasters, realities of FMA training versus other MA/Combat Sytstems, etc. into another new thread so the board will be less confusing to future readers. I hope to blog here and I'd like to start a healthy habit of staying on-topic. I think there is a question that hasn't been addressed in this thread and that is the definition of Dumog versus other ground fighting systems. This thread would be well served by some definitive, fact-based replies to that question. I am not qualified there. Here are some topics I might suggest:
Is FMA training for real combat?
Is lineage important?
Why do we call it an Art?
What components are there to the total FMA?
Is FMA a complete system?
What is the official FMA uniform?
What season is the best time of year for the naked choke?
Do I have to be without clothes for the naked choke?
Okay scratch the last one.
Hopefully you see my point.
Just an opinion.
Start a new thread.