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To me Dumog is incomplete because it does not seem to cover two of the ranges needed for close combat. I have only limited exposure, but as far as I know it does not have:

1. The shoot and sprawl range;

2. The guard and mount phase;


In addition, up to now, it has not been practiced in a free-flowing, unrehearsed, manner with resistance. Thus, IMO, it's better to learn BJJ where those elements can be trained.






To encourage further discussion on the number of topics brought up, this thread has been closed. The original questions/topics brought up have been addressed. Further inquiry and discussion into Dumog should be conducted in new discussions.


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All I can say is, grab em by the balls and their hearts and asses will follow..

Nuff said

Why are you posting foolish stuff? How can you train 'grab 'em by the balls'? You can't. To me a martial technique you can't train in an alive manner is useless. You will resort to what you have trained with resisting opponents in a real fight.

Lots of people have challenged decent level fighters who do performance based training thinking they were gonna poke eyes or squeeze balls and they failed. Why? They didn't have dominant position and couldn't get it. Now you can go fight some teenager, some geeky wimp and you can hurt him doing almost anything. But I don't fight someone unless I'm forced to and only a very tough guy is gonna force me and I will rely on what I train against my partners using full resistance and that are time-tested, not on some goofy ball-grabbing thing you can't train.

You think MMA guys fighting in the UFC level comps are not trying to kill their opponents? You think they hold back on any strike or submission (like a choke). They DO try to kill their opponents (people are harder to kill bare-handed than you'd think, given equal sized and in shape fighters) and if any of us week-end warriors were to fight with a top-ten guy bent on winning the fight the WW would end up in the hospital very quickly. 

So let's stay real, OK. If you're beating guys by ball grabbing and biting then you ought not to be fighting these wimps you should be showing them mercy and avoiding fighting. Otherwise you're sinking to the level of an animal, or you're going to stupid places with stupid people doing stupid things. The way of the true warrior is to avoid fighting and to see his H2H as a hobby not a way to maim people.

UFC fighters are trying to kill their opponents? Someone needs to tell the Feds ASAP.

To say FMA is this or that or to say dumog does this or does that is a nonsense because of the variety within the Filipino martial arts. As I said, one style of dumog I learned was completely different form the second style I learned, with entirely different intentions. To understand the different intentions, I believe one needs to look in to the roots of the style in question including the area it comes from. One can not judge a style by a video, some stuff on the net or even a seminar. Seminars may show stuff but they rarely include the training that is needed to apply techniques but that's where the meat is, in the training.

As Sonny Sisson said, you even attacked the very highly regarded Machado and the reason for that is beyond me 

Well said! 

Thank you Master Malmo!  It is nice to be among brothers who share similar experiences!


With respect always,



Hi Everyone...sorry to interject again...but I just wanted to add that for credibility that I have worked with BJJ guys and MMA guys for almost a decade helping them prepare for fights and have been a licensed Corner Man under the Edmonton Combative Sports Commission since 2005.


With respect always,



Great discussion!

 In my opinion that biting can counter the majority of submissive moves.

 When i was a younger i loved doing bjj & mma i think that you have to roll alot to and be in good physical condition to be good.It is good stuff and should not be ignored.... But it is a sport and it does have some rules to keep people from getting seriously hurt.

But like everything else its the person...not neccsarily the art that will win in the end. If you are a mediocre martial artist and you go up against some one with better skills, faster, stronger and more prepared mentally & physically u could lose.


Terry - you might think that but only those 'submission attempts' which are not done correctly - and you may have a point because a lot of people try moves they've seen on TV. But consider:

1. You can't practice biting in normal training, you can only 'indicate' and we've all seen the pitfalls with that. Remember Kano took out the injurious Judo moves NOT because they were too deadly but because they could not be incorporated in a robust, alive method of practice.

2. Also consider that if someone has a dominant position (position before submission) they can prevent you from biting. A submission is not a 'hold down' it's a prelude to breaking something so you bite a person who is inches and half-seconds away from breaking your shoulder and you're going to regret it. 

3. To bite you really need time and both hands and a dominant position. If you don't have that you are going to get your teeth pulled out when the bitee wrenches away violently.

4. Take your 'I think biting will work' and try it out on a willing BJJ brownbelt and see if it works for you.

5. If the opponent has a good RNC locked in and you manage to bite him on the arm, he'll just keep squeezing and then when you're out cold you'll wish you had not bitten.

So, though biting is not completely useless it's more complicated than one might think.

I agree with avoidance. However, I think one is limited by his own creativity. We've designed and incorporated equipment to practice ball grabbing and eye gouging. BTW, anyone see Paul Vunak's video on Kino Mu Tai, the Filipino art of biting. He uses Graci positions to keep from being bit, while biting. Also, the bad guy can't pull away until Vunak let's him. Vu does talk about getting your jaw crushed, if a bite is used incorrectly, to defend a rear naked choke.

IMO, I think Vunak is one of the most creative self-defense teachers out there.

Vu was one of the first Graci students, and still is, when they came to the US.

Vunak was also a trainer for the special forces.  On one of the videos that I had a link to on YouTube, Vunak said that the US Military wanted him over some of the people that Vunak recommended they hire, because he was NOT clean cut, NOT polite, had some very rough edges, and was as mean as all get out.  There are videos on YouTube of him instructing biting.

There are over 20 videos on YouTube that come up when you search for "vunak biting"

One of Vunak's partners in the dumog videos and the PFS was a member of the military.. If I remember right, he was an officer in the Navy.

Good Points!


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