To me Dumog is incomplete because it does not seem to cover two of the ranges needed for close combat. I have only limited exposure, but as far as I know it does not have:
1. The shoot and sprawl range;
2. The guard and mount phase;
In addition, up to now, it has not been practiced in a free-flowing, unrehearsed, manner with resistance. Thus, IMO, it's better to learn BJJ where those elements can be trained.
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The only fair fight is the one that you win..
Zach likes this response :) Understanding FMA means that you understand the culture, history, and philosophy that goes along with it... BJJ is a great sport just like boxing and wrestling with techniques that will also work very effectively in a street fight when the situation allows for such techniques.
This discussion reminds me of a story my teacher told me many years ago. He told me about one of his visits to Germany where he was invited to hold an FMA workshop and it was around the time BJJ was becoming very popular. My teacher was approached by a BJJ fighter and the guy asked if my teacher would accept his challenge to fight. My teacher looked at him strangely until he had enough of the Badgering (no pun intended ;) and he smashed a glass bottle on the floor in front of him and said to the guy, "I'm ready".
"In the end, you have to survive". - GM Pasa
did'nt one of the gracie bro's after a "in house" fight at the original gym (correct me if im wrong it was either a boxer or kungfu guy) have to stop during a school challenge due a an elbow being brought down on his spine during a shoot?
thats one thing that MMA guys cant do as a response (ie its a foul to hit back of head).
I typed up a longer explanation with details, but I accidentally closed the browser so I'll have to start over. =)
In short to address your immediate concerns. 1. It does deal with the 'shoot and sprawl' range. 2. It does cover the 'guard and mount' phase. 3. It has always been practiced with resistance in a free-flow manner.
Also, we train on concrete, pavement, gravel, whatever mother nature offers, and do not rely on the safety and comfort of mats. It is a whole different world for most submission players.
Well, if you look to the two top experts in the field, Guro Dan and (the late) Larry Hartsell, you'll see that they practiced it as a 'collection of tricks' much like Japanese Jiu-jitsu. If it is now being done in an 'alive' manner (footwork/movement, flow and timing, resistance and unpredictability) then kudos to you and yours.
The filipino arts always works with the flow of combat.. It is not a stationary position or concept as anyone who has been in combat know that all the movements are transitory.. It is just some people stay rooted in their fighting stance instead of getting off the firing line and either intercepting the attack by crashing or flowing around it..
I can tell you that my people don't have concrete shoes and move with the intent of not stopping until the attacker is taken care of or out for the count.. This is the principle that my instructors drilled into my head over the last 40 yrs and I pass it on to my people.. As far as fighting with 8 inch knives and swiping at each other, that is not knife fighting, that is knife dueling.. We move as dictated by the attack of our opponent, but most of the time, we are taking out the attacking limbs and going to finish the fight asap..
I teach my people to stay within 18 inches of their opponent with the movement as this allows us to control the movements of the individual.. Plus if you can develop the ability to learn the telegraphic motions and subtlies of an attacker, you can control the tempo of the fight a lot better by using his actions against him.. This is why we train the way we do and in all environments.. This is the true definition of a combatives practitioner from my perspective
Though I have a lot of respect for FMA and feel it is a second level martial art (using weapons training first and other aspects) remember that when the Dog Brothers actually took it to the next level a lot of eskrima players were caught off guard. Their flowing and double sticks and disarms just didn't work. So we can't be too complacent about how good FMA is. You say it is not a stationary position but watch a DB fight in with a medium level FMA player. He suddenly loses his fancy footwork and goes to caveman and backing up a lot. It takes a lot of work to do the roof block entry with good penetration skills. Also, 'staying within 18" of their opponent' is one isolation exercise and is not the way to fight or learn to spar with knives. You're not going to learn to use any knife skills that way, I'm sorry to say. If you want to take it to email, I'll be glad to discuss the real way to learn knife fighting (I learned it from someone else and don't feel free to discuss their method in the open forum). Believe me, it's real and it works and it's simple once you know and look back at how many people waste their time doing it wrong. HTH
I hope it is ok for me to enter the discussion...
Master Malmo and Bill are correct outstandingly correct...dumog is a complete art that encompasses the ranges that you specified. They are also dynamic and always practiced with resistance? I don't know of any part of FMA training that doesn't have resistance or aliveness training automatically integrated. As both have stated, FMA is an art that is based on continuous flow and transition, it definitely is not a static art.
Also, Master Malmo is especially correct when he said that one needs to examine the ultimate goals of dumog, which is to permanently incapacitate or kill the opponent. The difference in goal orientation plays a major factor in the functionality of a combative system. MMA fighters do not fight to kill each other, FMA fighters do (when they are fighting for real).
Also, many dumog techniques do not resemble MMA techniques as they are translated from weapon-based movements so they may, as a consequence, be somewhat unrecognizeable to conventional grapplers. Dumog practitioners seem to come up with locks and other immobilization techniques seemingly out of nowhere, and they invariably incorporate the other FMA aspects such as Panuntukan, Sipaan, and Tanikalang Kamay, all which are ground-applicable.
For example; My cousin trains at the Hayabusa Training Center in Edmonton, which puts out some of the best MMA fighters in our region. During the Christmas Holidays, my family gathered my parents' house (lola and lolo)...amongst the kids, the topic of MMA came up and Francis was saying how great it was to train at Hayabusa. My nephew who trains with me told him MMA was nothing special so an argument developed between the two. I told them the only solution was to fight, so I told Mitch, my nephew, to give Francis the handicap advantage and let him get the body triangle locked in as well as a rear naked choke. Once Francis had both on Mitch I said "go!". Francis tightened the rear naked choke and Mitch calmly used a "korot" (pinching) technique to the exposed inner thigh. Francis let go and screamed, and Mitch immediately turned over and punched his head which then impacted the hardwood floor. I told him "see how easily your winning moves were countered? If you're going to fight for real, train for it..."
Another time, I was teaching some friends in a park near my house, and a passerby came to observe...after a while, he rudely stated that we would get our butts kicked by an MMA fighter. I asked him why he would say that, and what his qualifications were, and he specified that he fought in King of the Cage MMA events. I invited him to spar...When he shot in for a leg pick, I eye-jabbed him as a natural reaction and he went down screaming, so I closed in and dropped my knee on his face. He then turtled and started screaming "enough! enough!". I dropped my knee a few more times on his face and them stomped on his angle which made him scream again, "stop!". I let him up but he was not able to stand immediately, and he said, "you guys cheat". I said "no, we just fight for real".
Regarding Dumog throws, they are, for the most part, almost impossible to recover from. The reason for this is that when we lock joints, we throw people so that they land on that locked joint so it is either broken or ripped out of its socket. This is why many Dumog throws are not applicable to MMA.
Regarding range, I start out teaching my students the conventional interpretations of range just to help learn the various systems such as Sipaan, Tanikalang Kamay and Panuntukan. When they understand this, I tell them to eliminate those definitions and treat everything as one range which I call the "sphere of combat", where all combative movement occurs. This way, they are not hindered mentally by having to think "what range am I in or transitioning to?"...they are then able to fully concentrate on killing the guy, or delivering the Estokada (death blow).
I hope I was able to help a bit...
With respect always,
Ollie, I like your reply a lot. Just remember that:
1. First you have a rule and then you break it. In painting, for example, you may copy the great masters, but then as you become closer to mastery, you must break out of that or any style. It is only the true genius who can start in a breakout mode, in your case telling students to treat all ranges as one might work for them or it might hinder them. You have to customize.
2. When the student is ready the 'Master' appears.
3. Talking about a Dumong throw that is impossible to recover from, also remember the lessons of early Judo - they were only able to develop a strong art by eliminating the very dangerous moves, because they were a bit too hazardous to practice routinely and effectively. The very dangerous moves also subject you to litigation, in this day and age not a part of SD you want to ignore. IMO, one of the very best moves is the rear naked choke because you leave your opponent unmarked and usually bewildered and you can make your exit while they are sleeping.
Good discussion guys
Great post...it reminds me of one of my very early training experiences.
I had just learned a particular immobilization technique from some BJJ instructor that effectively pinned both arms using one arm and both legs. No one at the seminar was familiar with how this 'amazing' technique could be defeated if they were caught in it.
I took this new technique to one of my FMA/Silat instructors and asked him what he would do. He had me put him in the technique, and he commented that it was indeed a good position for playing the game. I asked if he could get out, and he promptly bit me in the side of the ribs using his teeth like pincers. I instinctively let go of one arm and lost control of the other as he reversed positions. =)