A very close friend of mine re-posted a video called "Extreme Stick Fighting". It showed two guys in the woods with virtually no protection, fighting full contact. My point however is not that I agree or disagree with what they were doing but it's about the typical outcome of most full contact stick fights in general.
I've seen individuals go at it until one guy gets tired of getting hit and then decides to charge in on his or her opponent and begin to grapple. This is a common habit that I've seen mainly in the United States but have never seen FMA practitioners in the Philippines do. Maybe I just haven't seen enough full contact challenges in the Philippines, I don't know for sure. I used to fight full contact with a head and face protector and padded gloves but neither myself nor any of my group members would take the fight to a grappling stage.
I couldn't imagine two individuals with swords going to a grappling stage but again it could just be my lack of experience.
So my questions are,
1. Is this method only used by certain groups in America?
2. Did the idea come about because a FMA teacher wanted to mix FMA and Brazilian Ju-Jitsu?
3. Does an individual take it to the grappling stage because their stick fighting skills are not up to par?
4. Do practitioners in the Philippines agree or disagree with this practice?
For the most part, I feel that it is the lack of intent (or the use of equipment) that leads to this type of grappling. Dog brother matches typically end up grappling. In both examples, participants are not actively seeking to kill the other. If death was sought and possible, grappling like an mma match would not be a likely outcome.
Although the Sayoc guys are not using protective gear in the video, they are mutually respectful of each other's well being. They are seeking to train and train hard - but not kill their sparring partner.
I remember talking to Guro Harley Elmore a Sayoc affiliate in Texas in 02 or 03 and we were watching the video that i beleive Zach was talking about. that they don't intentionally do headshots..but it looked like they did a lot of snap type/witik style hits that allow you to close on your opponent. I also remember seing a fight on the same video where one guy was swinging for the fences and trying to make heavy contact with every swing and the other guy gave up after while. In my opinion thats the way to go.
In my opinion..... and its like anything else... everyone has one. with that being said...i don't think
they are not very good stickfighters...let alone blade against blade.
a good stickfighter will make u pay when u attempt to close the distance.
i think that some folks learn a little stickfighting just so they can defend against the initial strike so they can grapple...in my opinion that is okay if thats what you want.
Hello John and Terry,
First of all thanks for your input on this discussion. I experimented a little with shooting in on my guys under the cover of an umbrella/high wing deflection which tended to work well for me because they had a tendency to pause for a second and go on the defensive as I made my advance. But once again, there were no grappling techniques used. I guess if the a person was caught off guard or tripped it could come in handy so I don't dismiss the idea totally.
But we never fought without head and face protection... I was struck lightly on the eye once when I wasn't paying attention during a training session and that was more than enough for me to ensure that I had enough protection for my face when going all out.
The other thing I like about wearing headgear aside from safety reasons was that I didn't have to intentionally avoid striking the head. I used to try to destroy my stick on my partner's face mask which I found has a demoralizing affect on my training partner.
I also found it interesting that I could strike the legs hard enough to put my partner down and make them give up. Broken capillaries will definitely discourage some people, and luckily no one was seriously injured...
I look back on those days and think about how wreckless we were but I feel that we benefited somehow by giving and receiving such hard hits. We didn't want get hit so we learned the importance of good footwork and we also learned the importance keeping your opponent on the defensive.
Real sticks hurt and when you get hit with a stick it is very natural to clinch up (just like in boxing) to clear your head to prevent more striking damage. We wear head protection so we do target the head which is what I want my students to target on the street. I posted a video clip (CMA Stick Sparring) and at 6 seconds you will see that I rung my opponents head and then he proceeded to clinch me. Without head gear one could argue that the fight would have been over (of course, how many fights start with 2 poeple squared off with a stick anyway) but who knows. In my class, we decided that the only way a sparring match would stop before time is KOed, quit or submits. Everything else was too subjective.
When we use foam or padded sticks, I do not allow grabbling since I feel there is not enough damage being done to allow them to clinch to avoid the strikes. This forces them to work on their stick skillls and is much less damaging so we do it much more often.
Sparring no matter how extreme is still no measure of the street and is at best a good training aid. At worse it may lead to bad habits. Everyone should make certain their sparring matches their objectives.
I like your approach to training. Using multiple facets of training and focusing on particular realistic goals. Thanks for your input.
Zach, these are great questions and an awesome post:
My Opinion on them -
If we are talking about Stick Fighting and not Blade or Knife, (key word "Stick / Baston"here are my thoughts...
1. is this method used by certain groups in America: -
I don't believe so, the method you’re talking about (Dog Brother Style), is basically the arts of Dumog or Pangamut. Guro Dan and "Cacoy" Canete have been divulging these techniques for years.
2. Did the idea come about because FMA teachers wanted to mix FMA and Brazilian Ju-Jitsu -
Again the arts of Dumog, Buno and Pangamut have been around for years. The Dog Brothers and other groups have been trained in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu but I don't think it just stops there, some or most go by JKD concepts so Brazilian Ju-JitSu is just one of the arts that adapted to Stick Grappling but others like Catchascatchcan, Submission Wrestling, ShootWrestling, Sambo can all be blended with Stick Grappling.
3. Does an individual take to the Grappling stage because their stick fighting skills are not up to par -
Maybe it started that way in the beginning and maybe still, I've seen some of the Dog Brother competition where the fight did stop at Long Range, not a lot of them but there were some contest that did. Yes, I think there are groups that are dominating at Largo Mano Range, example: Panandata, OGE, Kabaroan, Bahala Na Multi-Styles, Sayas-Lastra to name a few. To be good at this range takes a lot of practice like Tae Kwon Do or Muey Thai Kicking if you can control the range and your very good at the range you most likely can win the fight in that range.
Also, it would depend on what type of sticks as well that could end in Long Range, like the impact with a Bahe, Kamagong or even worst Brazilian Walnut (this ones for you Lenard :), and not with a skinny Rattan or Felexable Rattan. This could or would impact the results of the fight !
4. Do practitioners in the Philippines agree or disagree with this practice -
Wouldn't know what the stats are and since I was born and raised here in America, my 2 cents is everyone likes to think that they can control a certain range in Stick Fighting or even Empty Hands for that fact. You might be great at Largo or Medo or Corto but my question would be why not learn Ground Stick Submission, it wouldn't hurt. I myself would not like to be put in a certain position or environment without knowing how to deal with it or get out of it, I mean does everyone know how to get out of a ground Fang Choke or a Stand-up X-Choke, we don't want to be ignorant and be caught in those postions without knowing a counter especially in the street.
Again Great Post – Regards David Ducay
Based from my knowledge from real fights(no protectors) I actually saw ..it is very rare that there is grappling...Intense fights last about 2-3 minutes only... and even it is a duel.. they are not targeting the sensitive parts of the body like the eyes, groin, neck....the most common are the head, hands, limbs, and feet..
I remember my teacher telling me that when he was challenged by someone wearing the common tournament protectors, he would identify all the areas that weren't protected by the armor before the fight began and then aim for those areas. He had one of his students put on the body protector to demonstrate that if a person had the proper skill, the protection really didn't matter. He then executed a witik strike at close range that landed between the seam of the body protector and the student dropped to one knee from the pain mainly induced by the strike.
My teacher was the first teacher in FMA that I trained with that was born and raised in Cebu City Philippines. I met him after training in the art for 7 years and when I saw and felt what he could do I was shocked! His accuracy at striking the vital areas and his control were something that I'd never experienced before. This is the main reason I have so many questions regarding the habits of many FMA fighters. Is it the style, the person, a combination of both, or something else?
For me.. its about personal discretion of the situation.. and why would you hit that hard someone for demonstration.exhibition purpose only.. maybe in real life..
Our Lakan Sampu edgar caburnay was challenged by 20 eskrimadors... so he grabbed his steel stick... did some abanico,, one challenger ended blind.. 2 with broken arms... and the rest ran away..
Master edgar caburnay is from cebu also..nephew of Supreme Master Undo caburnay of Lapunti arnis de abanico.
Although im not from cebu.. our place in Bicol philippines are full of eskrrimadors.. I saw so many real life challenges.
My observation is that whenever they see blood in the duel, they will not continue the fight, to prevent permanent damage.
Thank you again for your insights. There is definitely a lesson in humility and respect from your shared experiences.
Thank you for your reply in this discussion, it shed some light on many questions that I had in the initial post.