Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kurt Schanaman on February 5, 2010 at 2:07am

I have only recently become interested in learning Eskrima, and haven't even received one day of real-life training yet. But I must honestly state it's all a matter of an individuals intentions.

Those who are less developed in mind and spirit would seek to use their weapons training for ill purposes, of which instructors should be trained to identify to the best of their ability when making the choice to accept or to deny a prospective student.

Those who are more developed in mind and spirit would seek to use weapons only if needed for surviving an equal threat.

I personally subscribe to the moral insight of "live and let live" at every turn, unless someone threatens me with weapons which would kill me dead'r 'n hell -- thus preventing me from being allowed to live. But not everyone thinks the same way.

I will say that the video demonstrations in how Eskrima can make a defender of life "ready" when faced with the possibility of death by sword, knife or whatever, is what has attracted me to the art of Eskrima. I've witnessed many fights in the streets and all but two had weapons involved. The weapons typically range from any blunt object found laying on the street or in a parking lot, to tire irons, and even to butterfly knives. The resources you are mentioning really do address reality. However...

As a potential trainee in Eskrima, it is my hope that I receive equal training in how to de-escalate a situation rather than go straight for the gusto in "accepting any challenge." If videos and other resource simply demonstrate what can be learned, rather than actually glorifying or teaching themselves, it doesn't seem to cause evil to become even more evil.

I would say that it is the mindset taught to Eskrimadors by the instructors that matter. The student should certainly be trained to defend against, and to use, lethal force when absolutely necessary. However, the student must be made very aware of the fact that we live in a system of laws which do not compare to the old system of public dueling to the death as a matter of recognition or honor.

If training is conducted with the law in mind, the student should be made aware that even a self-defense situation does have legal and financial consequences when physical injury or even death is the result. Though the old saying "Rather be judged by jury than carried by twelve" sounds good, juries can decide that your use of force was disproportionate, landing you in the locker while the key is thrown away.

I think any video showing edged weapons training and sport should be accompanied by a serious warning and disclaimer, at the very least. If not, you are correct that perhaps such things shouldn't be shown outside of the dojo.

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Permalink Reply by Travis Day on February 5, 2010 at 7:22am

Criminals rarely have the dicipline or patience required to properly learn to use these weapons any further than untrained body mechanics allow, or they would have a job. I also want to believe that for every bad guy that takes interest there are several good guys that do as well. In most of the "developed" nations it takes very little, if any, martial skill to be able to take advantage of the average citizen. In my opinion the more we share our knowledge the better. I am not sure who said it, perhaps Thomas Jefferson, "Armed society is polite society". By sharing what we know we help the good people defend themselves against the bad ones.

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Permalink Reply by Kurt Schanaman on February 5, 2010 at 7:32am

Well said Travis. I do hope your belief that, for every bad guy that takes interest there are several good guys that do as well, is real. I try so hard to see the good in the world, but it's getting more difficult to find every day. I do believe Edmund Burke said it best: "...all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I am seeking training to war for anything left that is good, and to defend it wherever that good may be.

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Bradbury on August 29, 2010 at 9:34am

"An armed society is a polite society" - Robert A. Heinlein, sci-fi writer. But I'm sure he'd have been honored to have something of his attributed to Thomas Jefferson. :)

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Permalink Reply by Kurt Schanaman on February 7, 2010 at 7:45pm

I just chose to begin study in Eskrima rather than something such as Tae Kwon Do, with the expectation that it could prove useful when being confronted with weapons with no way to escape. Are you actually saying that all of you who teach it know that it's just a game -- a fun passtime -- with no real-world benefit? If this is so, then are the instructors in both Eskrima and Krav Maga lying when they claim they've trained military and poiice personnel in both of these arts?

While I was in the Army back in the 1990's, we "regular" grunt soldiers weren't trained in anything but throwing a few punches and then stabbing with a bayonet (after we ran out of rounds). But Special Forces did appear to be capable of slinging weapons around quite effectively, and it did indeed look similar to some form of Eskrima.

Or, are you saying people just don't realize the possibility of getting cut? If that is all you're saying here, then my military experience does affirm that fact. Injuries happen to both parties in any battle, and they can become quite severe. It's why we always had field medics available nearby any skirmish. They are indeed needed.

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Permalink Reply by Mataw Guro David Battaglia on August 29, 2010 at 1:05pm

IMO, a combination of defensive firearms training and FMA is the way to go for self-defense.

There are shooting schools and roaming instructors teaching good stuff to civilians. Gabe Suarez (also a FMA-pekiti-tirsia) is one. He collaborated with Marc Denny producing a video series "Die Less Often." Gabe incorporates airsoft in to the training which adds quite a bit of motivation to the training.

However, the best self-defense is awareness and avoidance. An aware person id seldom attacked and if attacked is prepared. Also, if a person want to keep out of trouble he shouldn't hang out with bad people or go where bad things happen.

Guro Dave

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Permalink Reply by Joshua Morale on February 7, 2010 at 7:29pm

Dennis,

I think the biggest thing to keep in consideration is not necessarily the amount of info , but the amount of info that is ,well...what's a polite way to put this.. well total Martial arts wishful thinking.

What do I mean?A lot of MA videos and Youtube clips are extremely questionable at best. First and foremost any one who is going to assualt you is more than likely fully capable of doing so (they have learned by actually doing it, no need for fancy lessons) and if their intent is to harm you then you will be attacked, there will be no warning. If their intent is to rob you then they certiantly won't do so standing in your hand range with their arm out stretched, giving you a chance to defend yourself. its not that static , although your chances are much better against a hold up, they are still BAD BAD BAD BAD. Un armed Knife defense in the real world does't exist, it is only getting lucky. Lucky enough to hit him with a chair, lucky enought that although you were cut or stabbed repeatedly ,you will be ok in a few months.

My point is not the amount of info but more the contents of said info.The bad guys (proactive) already know the best ways to do the things they do, it is the good guys (reactive) who usually seek traing or advice against the bad guys. It is a disservice to have the average person beleive that they are capable of defending themselves in one of the worst case self defense senarios and comeout unscathed . Any one that trains in knife sparring or proper knife defense training knows you will get cut/stabbed repeatedly, and these are people who are highly skilled. Think about all the times that you have screwed up a technique in practice, got jacked, and those are in controlled conditions. When faced with a knife you must do something , I dont know what that something is, I hope that if the time comes I figure it out.

If you do want release info then you should also realize that someone may have blind faith in a technique that you provided on youtube,having never learned it propperly, trained it, or even practiced it. This is the down side to the digital age.

I know this wasn't a thread about knife defense. I'm using this as an example. I don't intend to be insulting but ,there alot of unworkable and unreliable info out there from, arm chair commandos in ski masks, guys dressed like ninjas, and apparently an entire village full of experts. -Josh

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Permalink Reply by Black Swan Tactical on February 8, 2010 at 5:45pm

Josh,

Funny, I was thinking of doing my videos in body suits -w- masks like an Intel clean room ad! Hahahaha...never know.

Sincerely,
Thomas

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Permalink Reply by Kurt Schanaman on February 8, 2010 at 12:26pm

Thank you, Master Saturno, for your willingness to elaborate on what you meant. I served in the military, therefore I do have something many people haven't entertained: a healthy fear and respect for any opponent. All it takes is mere seconds for any fight to be over, and I've seen how both the "opponent" and "defendant" are both injured, one often more than the other. I'm not going into Eskrima and Silat lightly. I know from experience in combat that there is no such thing as invincibility, but my hope is that with proper and serious training, my chances can be increased dramatically.

I'm one who must travel to a distant city in order to obtain this training, to the order of a five-hour round trip every weekend. This is why I inquired about what you truly meant, because with that kind of travel time and cost, I wanted to be sure the systems of Eskrima and Silat are effective.

I have the privilege to train under one of those who made the trip to the Phillipines and resided there for one year to train under both GM Ernesto Presas, Sr., and GM Ernesto Presas, Jr. along with others. I've done plenty of research into the skills of the gentleman and it is a real privilege to also have him as a friend here on myfma.net - GM Shelley Millspaugh. From what I have seen about those Grand Masters in Shelley's lineage, the training should be on par with anything Special Forces, Seals and Marines acquire.

With any opponent I could run into currently, I'm at a severe disadvantage. The hand-to-hand close-quarters combat training most of us "regular" enlistees is pretty basic and absolutely worthless. If I were attacked today with no firearm, I would freeze up and lose. One must be honest with himself. Gun battles such as those I participated in the military is the "ultimate hand extension", and it is the only way of combat I know. It is my hope that I've chosen wisely in selecting Eskrima and Silat. Since I've already attained the age of 41, time for learning is quickly fading, and I want to make sure I'm engaging in the absolute right choice since I may not be able to make another soon.

Thanks again for elaborating. Kurt

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Permalink Reply by Black Swan Tactical on February 8, 2010 at 5:17pm

Hey Dennis!

The dilemma you posted is not a new one for escrima, arnis, martial or combative art. If any person or govt agency, local or abroad, wants to do any martial art, weapon or weaponless, harm they will leverage any propaganda available, true or false, for their cause. As a group FMA practitioners need to be proactive and respond to any media missteps.

I am not yet a guro, instructor, master, or dojo owner, but would like to be in that special group. Given the ratio of knives to firearms in society, which must be around 15+:1, and the fact that most criminals seem to use what I think is a more effective killing weapon, firearms. Firearm related technologies are far more dangerous given that they do not allow any defense and can strike at targets 100 yards or more away. I think the knife laws are inadequate given the skill necessary for employing them. A carry law for knives in all 50 states, should be passed that allows a trained practitioner of 1 year of FMA to carry up to a 7" knife as it is fully exposed.

Even NASA let in a scientist with a Ph. D. who then traversed the bottom half of the U.S. in diapers to get back at an associate! Also the doctor that went off the deep end at the Mil base and killed what was it, 20 was a psychiatrist himself. I think this raises the question of what constitutes an effective screeining process for any technology or organization?

After seeing hundreds if not thousands of YouTube videos, I do not think that 80% of the FMA being taught is quite up to military grade. I'd be interested in what constitutes a dangerous chunk of information? It is just a knife, machete or sword and they have been around for thousands of years, and the information is available to anyone with a library card.

Does anyone teach what they teach to the military to anyone off the street in the first 6 months? I think all of the basic moves are applicable to combat. All you need to do to qualify for the negative propaganda is have a $50 Kabar. But advanced moves in FMA require a lot of conditioning, O2. Basic Cromagnon striking patterns are not that different between trained and untrained practitioners, but the stroke are and the physical requirements go through the roof as higher level skills are used.

Most importantly, in less than 5 years a person with a biochemistry degree working in their garage will be able to create an off the shelf bio weapon that will kill or maim thousands in a weekend.

Sincerely,
Thomas

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Permalink Reply by Black Swan Tactical on February 8, 2010 at 7:09pm

Dennis,

You question raises political questions.

#1) YouTube blocks some friends of mine from the PI from seeing videos that I have in my YouTube playlists. Some are of FMA, some are of music or video. They call me and we watch them together as we speak using Magic Jack and I only found this out after meeting them online.

#2) Nobody stops the martial arts practitioner from going to any specific country to teach FMA to my knowledge. As I looked around on YouTube to see what was being taught, I've noticed inst going to this, that, or another country and I wondered... and I know, martial arts knows no geographical boundary, but I was surprised in any case and it made me think.

Are you worried about YouTube teaching a few criminals? or an org like Al Queada? or an or as big as a foreign govt!

#3) I raised the question of background checks on students a week ago with one of my current guro's when I said if I opened a studio I would conduct background checks to see what people were into. He said that the law, even in the U.S. is not even handed across all of the strata and who was I to make any hasty judgments. He was right. We all know this is a fact. The poor get a much rougher treatment in the court system. Who is to say who had good or bad representation in court, who is bad or good, who has a record and if they are really as guilty as it implies given the shades of gray. And he also stated the fact that, does the guy with the record, or anyone for that matter really have the right to defend themselves in the U.S. with a gun, knife or sword other than the police and mil?


Sincerely,
Thomas

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Permalink Reply by Dennis J. White on March 23, 2010 at 2:25pm

Hi everyone, thank you so much for your thought provoking commentary on the topic I've posted. It certainly gives food for thought and also enables me to look at the issue from a variety of viewpoints, some of which I hadn't even considered. All of your observations and opinions have contributed to my own development and understanding so thank you all. I think we have a great resource here thanks to Guro Malmo, and it's wonderful to speak with other FMA instructors who are faced with similar issues and can offer workable solutions for shared concerns. Hope you had a great Paddy's day Steve, and George Street was indeed hopping.

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